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Re: Battle for Gibraltar 1704

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:33 am
by Navclio
I don't know of anywhere to find the "officers" of any of the ships except for their commanders. Later, monthly disposition lists of the British navy included the names of lieutenants as well as captains, with some omissions, especially on foreign stations like the Mediterranean; I suppose these were the result of knowledge in London that a lieutenant had died, promoted, or resigned, but without notice yet of who had been appointed in his place. Transfer of lieutenants and promotion of midshipmen who had passed the lieutenants' exam was the province of commanders-in-chief except in home waters. The disposition lists (sometimes called "A List of His Majesty's Ships in Sea Pay") are at the [British] National Archives in Kew, in document series ADM 8. They included lieutenants by the 1740's, but I don't know about 1704. I have no idea what kind of records there would be for Dutch and French lieutenants.

In the British navy, warrant officers, which included masters, boatswains, carpenters, gunners, and, I think, pursers (I'm not sure about sailmakers, but they might have required warrants too), were appointed by warrant by the Navy Board. The board probably kept a list of warrant holders with the rates they were qualified for, but I don't know whether they had any central record of who the master, boatswain, etc., was for a particular ship at a particular time. Pursers had bonds to post, varying, I think, by the rate of the ship, and accounts to clear, so there was more likely to be a central list of them than of other warrant officers. (Boatswains, carpenters, and gunners were responsible for stores, but I don't think they had to post bonds like pursers.) Warrant officers were considered "officers" in the British navy, but I don't know what the status was of the comparable men in other navies, except that there was a distinction between the commissioned officers—captains, lieutenants, and, in the French navy, ensigns—and other officers. Where the records of these officers for 1704 would be I have no idea; I think it would be necessary to consult a naval archivist.

Battle for Gibraltar 1704

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:59 am
by Calpe1704
Thanks Navclio. I have now sourced and ordered both those books from Amazon, by Bender and Winfield.
The 'battle' as such would be classed as the 'Capture of Gibraltar' by the Anglo-Dutch, in July 1704, allowing for the difference of calendars.
I had downloaded W.L.Clowes Vol.1, so i'll now look for Vol.III, thanks.

As you might know the American web site is great: - ... 56-1905%22

The battle was definitely for Gibraltar and not Velez, Malaga.

Thanks for all the advise you've given me.

Re: Battle for Gibraltar 1704

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:55 am
by Navclio
Velez Malaga was a battle for Gibraltar—the French fleet, with Spanish galleys in attendance, was trying to drive the Anglo-Dutch fleet away so that the point of land could be retaken. But if you are only interested in the ships involved in the amphibious attack on the place itself, then you can ignore my suggestions about ship and officer data for the French fleet.

It looks like all of the Dutch provinces had changed to the Gregorian calendar by 1701, so their dates would be 11 dates later than the British (Holland and Noord-Brabant had changed almost immediately, at the end of 1582; the other provinces switched in 1700, except Drente, which changed in 1701).

Re: Battle for Gibraltar 1704

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:26 am
by Calpe1704
Thanks for clearing that up, though surely it wasn't to retake that point of land as Gibraltar was then Spanish and poorly defended as the Spanish royalty even then didn't pay much attention to its defenses.
Really i'll be directing all my interest in the Anglo-Dutch fleet.
I've now downloaded the complete set of W.L. Clowes.
Thanks again

Re: Battle for Gibraltar 1704

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:49 am
by JohnH
Demerliac's volumes appear to be still in print and all available from ANCRE Editions at (for the English language version of the site). They are mostly 80 to 84 euros per book or about 92 to 96 US dollars plus postage. The first volume (1610-1661) is 50 euros.

Re: Battle for Gibraltar 1704

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:48 am
by Navclio
I bought my copies of Demerliac--the volumes from Louis XIV's majority (le Roi-Solei) through the First Empire only--many years ago. A few years later, a friend of mine tried to get his own set but found that the publisher just wouldn't do business with someone in the U.S., even in Euros. A contact in France got them and sent them to me, and I reimbursed him. For 1786 and later, Winfield and Roberts is probably better if you can manage the English. For before 1786, Winfield and Roberts will probably be better. W & R have the benefit of Demerliac as a starting point but did their own original research and have probably corrected errors and filled in gaps. (I have not seen either W & R volume.) W & R might omit the Indiamen and privateers that some Demerliac volumes include. Their inclusion in the Louis XV volume has been important for my project on the 1739–48 wars since French naval forces in the Indian Ocean consisted almost entirely of Indiamen.