Santa Dorval
Santa Dorval
I am looking for more information on The Santa Dorval... I do know that it was captured in 1799 by The York. Any help would be appreciated...
Re: Santa Dorval
Wikipedia has the following on the York page
"In June–July 1799, York captured Santa Dorval, a Spanish packet boat, of four guns, 22 men, and 86 tons (bm). She was sailing from Vera Cruz to Havanna, and under the command of Lieutenant Don Joseph Bonefacio of the Spanish navy. Carnatic, Alarm, Thunderer, and Volage were in company with York."
"In June–July 1799, York captured Santa Dorval, a Spanish packet boat, of four guns, 22 men, and 86 tons (bm). She was sailing from Vera Cruz to Havanna, and under the command of Lieutenant Don Joseph Bonefacio of the Spanish navy. Carnatic, Alarm, Thunderer, and Volage were in company with York."
OK, it was me, probably!
Re: Santa Dorval
The Wikipedia entry is verbatim from The Naval Chronicle, vol. 3 (January 1800), p. 68.
A 22-man dispatch boat with 2 guns per broadside, probably 4-pounders, possibly 3s, did not have much chance against a squadron of three ships of the line (Thunderer, 74; Carnatic, 74; York, 64) and two frigates (Alarm, 32 [12-pounder]; Volage, 22 [all 32-pounder carronades). She probably did not fire a shot after finding that she could not weather or outrun them all.
A 22-man dispatch boat with 2 guns per broadside, probably 4-pounders, possibly 3s, did not have much chance against a squadron of three ships of the line (Thunderer, 74; Carnatic, 74; York, 64) and two frigates (Alarm, 32 [12-pounder]; Volage, 22 [all 32-pounder carronades). She probably did not fire a shot after finding that she could not weather or outrun them all.
Re: Santa Dorval
I am interested in her life and career before capture, any thoughts on where I could look? THANKS!
Re: Santa Dorval
She might not have had a "life and career" before capture. She was probably a local hire or requisition to take dispatches from or to Havana under the command of an alferez de fragata (the lowest commissioned officer rank in the Spanish navy) or even a petty officer. The 1799 voyage might have been her first in government service.
There is not, as far as I know, a comprehensive published directory of sail-era warships for the Spanish navy like there is for the British, French, Danish, and Russian navies (although the British and French directories are not necessarily complete for brief hires, purchases, and requisitions on foreign stations, which were not always reported very promptly or accurately to the navy's central administration back in the national capital). I Googled various combinations of "Santa Dorval" (in quotes), "Havana," "1799," and "paquebote," and only got multiple hits on the Naval Chronicle record; I did not get any hits on histories of Cuba that Google has digitized. There might be references to Santa Dorval in local Spanish histories in the Caribbean, particularly of Havana and Cuba and of Mexico (New Spain in 1799) and Veracruz. But it's a long shot—we can't expect local historians to chronicle every voyage by such a small vessel carrying dispatches, a frequent and routine mission; perhaps she is mentioned somewhere because she was captured.
There might be prize records in the Admiralty Court records in the British National Archives, but the vessel would not have been worth much and the value would have been shared so widely, among the officers and crews of five ships, that it would hardly have been worthwhile to make a claim if there was a dispute. But with a year, you could search the index there for "York" "Santa Dorval," and "1799."
Keep in mind, too, that Santa Dorval might not even have been a naval vessel. She might just have been a private ship carrying mail. She was still subject to capture and could be made a "prize" by British warships or privateers, but might not be included on even the most comprehensive list of local "warships."
The best bet might be to go to Havana, Veracruz, and Mexico City and go through the 1799 records of the Captaincy-General of Cuba and the Viceroyalty of New Spain—if there are any local colletions there. Spanish government records would presumably be in the Archivo General de Indias in Seville. Historians have recently been making use of the latter, so they might have been reorganized or catalogued around the end of the 20th century. There are extensive records of the Havana naval shipyard in Havana, which have long been used by historians, but I don't know about other naval records there.
There is not, as far as I know, a comprehensive published directory of sail-era warships for the Spanish navy like there is for the British, French, Danish, and Russian navies (although the British and French directories are not necessarily complete for brief hires, purchases, and requisitions on foreign stations, which were not always reported very promptly or accurately to the navy's central administration back in the national capital). I Googled various combinations of "Santa Dorval" (in quotes), "Havana," "1799," and "paquebote," and only got multiple hits on the Naval Chronicle record; I did not get any hits on histories of Cuba that Google has digitized. There might be references to Santa Dorval in local Spanish histories in the Caribbean, particularly of Havana and Cuba and of Mexico (New Spain in 1799) and Veracruz. But it's a long shot—we can't expect local historians to chronicle every voyage by such a small vessel carrying dispatches, a frequent and routine mission; perhaps she is mentioned somewhere because she was captured.
There might be prize records in the Admiralty Court records in the British National Archives, but the vessel would not have been worth much and the value would have been shared so widely, among the officers and crews of five ships, that it would hardly have been worthwhile to make a claim if there was a dispute. But with a year, you could search the index there for "York" "Santa Dorval," and "1799."
Keep in mind, too, that Santa Dorval might not even have been a naval vessel. She might just have been a private ship carrying mail. She was still subject to capture and could be made a "prize" by British warships or privateers, but might not be included on even the most comprehensive list of local "warships."
The best bet might be to go to Havana, Veracruz, and Mexico City and go through the 1799 records of the Captaincy-General of Cuba and the Viceroyalty of New Spain—if there are any local colletions there. Spanish government records would presumably be in the Archivo General de Indias in Seville. Historians have recently been making use of the latter, so they might have been reorganized or catalogued around the end of the 20th century. There are extensive records of the Havana naval shipyard in Havana, which have long been used by historians, but I don't know about other naval records there.
Re: Santa Dorval
My first question is very simple
Was really a ship named SANTA DORVAL?
I have found notice on it only in British newspaper databases and similar.
Google give no answer for any SANTA DORVAL a-so as known name. So it is very probably the name is wrong!
In wikipedia and other sources you could find a list of all christian saints since AD 450
there are no any names similar to DORVAL
I have Spanish books , which listed merchan movement at Vera Cruz and Campeche of that period.
Was really a ship named SANTA DORVAL?
I have found notice on it only in British newspaper databases and similar.
Google give no answer for any SANTA DORVAL a-so as known name. So it is very probably the name is wrong!
In wikipedia and other sources you could find a list of all christian saints since AD 450
there are no any names similar to DORVAL
I have Spanish books , which listed merchan movement at Vera Cruz and Campeche of that period.
Re: Santa Dorval
El péndulo marítimo-mercantil en el Atlántico Novohispano (1798-1825)
Mario Trujillo Bolio
Anexo 4
Departures of ships from New Spain to Cariban,USA and Europe
none of ships matched
1 Apr 1799 sailed schooner FIDELA Veracruz-La Habana in name of the King with 150,000 pesos.
I will look later (not actually on hand)
Comercio exterior de Veracruz, 1778-1821: crisis de dependencia
Javier Ortiz de la Tabla Ducasse - 1978
Mario Trujillo Bolio
Anexo 4
Departures of ships from New Spain to Cariban,USA and Europe
none of ships matched
1 Apr 1799 sailed schooner FIDELA Veracruz-La Habana in name of the King with 150,000 pesos.
I will look later (not actually on hand)
Comercio exterior de Veracruz, 1778-1821: crisis de dependencia
Javier Ortiz de la Tabla Ducasse - 1978
Re: Santa Dorval
OK the ship is packet brig (bergantín correo ) SANDOVAL
also know as EL SANDOVAL
ship of that name was already in service 1784,1787
but that ship was lost in 1787, so your ship is replacement one
Gazetas de Mexico
Tom IX Num 10 8 Oct 1798
Veracruz
26 Sep arrived packet brig SANDOVAL from Havana
7 Oct sailed packet brig for Havana
captain Don Isidoro Joseph Caymari
(In that time Don Joseph Bonifacio de la Hera commanded packet brig DESPACHO)
Tom IX Num 34 15 Apr 1799
Veracruz
18 Mar arrived packet brig SANDOVAL from Havana
captain D.Bonifacio de la Hera
Tom IX Num 34 29 May 1799
Veracruz
6 May sailed packet brig SANDOVAL for Havana
captain D.Bonifacio de la Hera
also know as EL SANDOVAL
ship of that name was already in service 1784,1787
but that ship was lost in 1787, so your ship is replacement one
Gazetas de Mexico
Tom IX Num 10 8 Oct 1798
Veracruz
26 Sep arrived packet brig SANDOVAL from Havana
7 Oct sailed packet brig for Havana
captain Don Isidoro Joseph Caymari
(In that time Don Joseph Bonifacio de la Hera commanded packet brig DESPACHO)
Tom IX Num 34 15 Apr 1799
Veracruz
18 Mar arrived packet brig SANDOVAL from Havana
captain D.Bonifacio de la Hera
Tom IX Num 34 29 May 1799
Veracruz
6 May sailed packet brig SANDOVAL for Havana
captain D.Bonifacio de la Hera
Re: Santa Dorval
Simply everything is logical
SANDOVAL (i) sank 1787
a new ship was built or purchased
named NUEVO SANDOVAL
and then renamed SANDOVAL (ii)
Comercio exterior de Veracruz, 1778-1821: crisis de dependencia
Javier Ortiz de la Tabla Ducasse - 1978
import Vera Cruz
12 Jun 1788 arrived brig "El Sandoval" form Havana, Vicente Nieves (cargo valued 109'6 pesos)
6 Mar 1789 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Vicente Nieves Oropesa (cargo valued 181 pesos)
4 May 1790 arrived brig "Nuevo Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 78+168 pesos)
11 Aug 1791 arrived brig "Nuevo Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 239'2 pesos)
21 Dec 1791 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 144'6 pesos)
1 Sep 1792 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 9.514 pesos)
19 Jan 1793 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 134'4 pesos)
28 Jan 1794 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Antonio de Aranga (cargo valued 20'2 pesos)
13 Dec 1794 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, -------------- (cargo valued 746 pesos)
8 Apr 1795 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, -------------- (cargo valued 402'2 pesos)
Gazetas de Mexico,
Tom III Num 41 6 Oct 1789
9 Mar 1789 sailed brig "Nuevo Sandoval" for Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez
13 Sep 1789 arrived brig "Nuevo Sandoval" form Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez
SANDOVAL (i) sank 1787
a new ship was built or purchased
named NUEVO SANDOVAL
and then renamed SANDOVAL (ii)
Comercio exterior de Veracruz, 1778-1821: crisis de dependencia
Javier Ortiz de la Tabla Ducasse - 1978
import Vera Cruz
12 Jun 1788 arrived brig "El Sandoval" form Havana, Vicente Nieves (cargo valued 109'6 pesos)
6 Mar 1789 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Vicente Nieves Oropesa (cargo valued 181 pesos)
4 May 1790 arrived brig "Nuevo Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 78+168 pesos)
11 Aug 1791 arrived brig "Nuevo Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 239'2 pesos)
21 Dec 1791 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 144'6 pesos)
1 Sep 1792 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 9.514 pesos)
19 Jan 1793 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez (cargo valued 134'4 pesos)
28 Jan 1794 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, Juan Antonio de Aranga (cargo valued 20'2 pesos)
13 Dec 1794 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, -------------- (cargo valued 746 pesos)
8 Apr 1795 arrived brig "El Sandoval" from Havana, -------------- (cargo valued 402'2 pesos)
Gazetas de Mexico,
Tom III Num 41 6 Oct 1789
9 Mar 1789 sailed brig "Nuevo Sandoval" for Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez
13 Sep 1789 arrived brig "Nuevo Sandoval" form Havana, Juan Manuel Vélez
Re: Santa Dorval
Hurrah for Andreas!
I had no idea that collections of Mexican newspapers were available. The 6 May 1799 departure from Veracruz must be the voyage that ended in capture by the British squadron in "June-July." It would be interesting to know where that happened. During the 1739–48 war, the Jamaica squadron never ventured into the Gulf of Mexico, and I don't think I've ever seen anything about British operations in the Gulf in the War of American Independence, either, although fruitless patrols wouldn't make the histories. The usual Spanish route in the 1740's between Havana and Veracruz—important because the Veracruz–Havana leg was the route for shipments of Mexican silver to Havana for forwarding to Europe—was circular. From Havana, the course was more or less direct to the southwest. However, from Veracruz, Spanish ships sailed north, then east, then south along the northern shores of the Gulf. In wartime, silver shipments had a rendezvous with the Havana battle squadron off the southwestern coast of the Florida peninsula, north of the Florida Keys, or off the Dry Tortugas west of modern Key West. From there, it was more or less due south to Havana. There was over 100 miles of open sea to cross at that point, plenty of room for the Jamaica squadron, or a detachment of it, to cruise.
I had no idea that collections of Mexican newspapers were available. The 6 May 1799 departure from Veracruz must be the voyage that ended in capture by the British squadron in "June-July." It would be interesting to know where that happened. During the 1739–48 war, the Jamaica squadron never ventured into the Gulf of Mexico, and I don't think I've ever seen anything about British operations in the Gulf in the War of American Independence, either, although fruitless patrols wouldn't make the histories. The usual Spanish route in the 1740's between Havana and Veracruz—important because the Veracruz–Havana leg was the route for shipments of Mexican silver to Havana for forwarding to Europe—was circular. From Havana, the course was more or less direct to the southwest. However, from Veracruz, Spanish ships sailed north, then east, then south along the northern shores of the Gulf. In wartime, silver shipments had a rendezvous with the Havana battle squadron off the southwestern coast of the Florida peninsula, north of the Florida Keys, or off the Dry Tortugas west of modern Key West. From there, it was more or less due south to Havana. There was over 100 miles of open sea to cross at that point, plenty of room for the Jamaica squadron, or a detachment of it, to cruise.